Wolfe article Grosel : The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"

droche86

Member
Good article. You do a great job of getting below the surface and into the scheme whether it's Offense or Defense.

However, you (like AJ did with his Grades Article) put the onus on Cignetti " to scheme better plays for Grosel

It reminds me of some standard cliché sayings . Not to beat a dead horse but you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

It takes two to complete to complete a pass. (1) a quarterback and (2) a receiver.

Reminds me of a game Tom Brady was critisized. His wife Geisel defended her husband, "He cant both throw and catch the ball on the same play"

AJ wrote a piece on Grading the position groups. However, he wanted to see them get Zay more involved . They do get him involved. It's not his fault if the QB can't get him the ball.

You and AJ seem to put the onus on the coaches.

Grosel just doesn't :
* Process the information
* Make quick decisions
* Release the pass quick enough
* Have the arm. Maximum 15 yes accuracy
* Make the reads.
* Make his progressions
* See the field
* Find the open man
* Make the check downs

The College Power 5 game is too fast for DG.

The receivers are getting separation . Getting open. They are getting open on both the long and short routes.

For example Grosel made a great pass to Zay in the end zone from the red zone in the Mizzou game. If you were not at the game you would not have seen there was a wide open BC receiver on the other side of the end zone. Rather than throw the easy guaranteed touch down pass to the open man DG threw the risky pass to a covered Zay.

Even on the screens or short routes DG hesitates and holds on to the ball too long. He is very tentative. This hesitation limits the yards after catch, increases chance for interception and could get a receiver injured.

During the Tuesday and Wednesday practices prior to the Clemson game they worked the short game and tight ends. It helped. The tight ends had a good game. You act as though every other play was a Forty yard pass down field. It wasn't. They scheme for DG.

DG had a good final series in death valley because.

* He was in the 2 minute offense. He practice it ad nauseum. He didnt have to think. He knew before the snap who, when, where the receiver was.
* He was in the shot gun
* He wasn't taking the snap under center and doing a 7 step drop back.
* There were no RPO's
* Clemson was playing deep in a prevent defense.


You can't play the 2 minute drill the whole game. Perhaps an up tempo game will play to his advantage.

I guess we have to hope the defense continues to play well and DG plays good enough to win.

Or

Do as Oklahoma did against Texas today and pull QB Rattler (pre season Heisman favorite) and put in a true freshman Caleb Williams with a strong arm that makes quick decision.
 
Last edited:

CDB

Member
I disagree. Caleb Williams is 5-rated QB with credential similar to that of Phil. Our backups are more like the Penn State backups. But I guess you guys are going to insist that our coaching staff is wrong and your are right. That's your opinion and your are entitled to it.
 

droche86

Member
I disagree. Caleb Williams is 5-rated QB with credential similar to that of Phil. Our backups are more like the Penn State backups. But I guess you guys are going to insist that our coaching staff is wrong and your are right. That's your opinion and your are entitled to it.
How would you rate Grosel's play. I would rate him a two star. ( That is generous)
Dennis (2*) Grosel.

Oklahoma stuck with their 5 star veteran Rattler even though his performance suffered. Their last game the fans were chanting to put in the backup.
The coaches did not listen and even started Rattler today against Texas.. Before they yanked him , made a great comeback and won.

BC coaching staff say they stole Morehead (spelling?,) a freshman three star quarterback. They said because of Covid he wasn't able to go to camps or play many games in California thus was under the radar and overlooked. BC believes Morehead should be rated a 4 stars. Why not find out. So would you start our two star vet over a three or four star rookie ? You have to give Grosel the benefit of the doubt, and some then. But it gets to a point (like Oklahoma State) were you need to act.

Others argue Grosel knows the playbook better than all. Big deal. First they want to change the whole game plan that they have implemented over the last two years. Plus Moorehead has been on board since January. With the rookie you don't have to change the game plan as you do for Dennis.

How about the seniors and graduates that came back or the transfers that arrived. Is it fair to them . Às I've said before I think Harley sees a little bit of himself in Grosel. He also used Grosel as an example to motivate the other players. Both make it harder to can him. College football is a big boys game. Can't worry about feeling. The player that gives you the best chance to win should play.

BC coaches know best. They will start DG for NC State. They should.
I hope he excels .
But if BC falls behind by two touchdowns against NC State let's see what Morehead can do.
 
Last edited:

CDB

Member
My point is that if we had a QB backup like Oklahoma does (a 5-rated QB) Dennis would have never got on the field. Coaches have had two weeks to work with the backups and I have every confidence that if they believe a backup can play better than Dennis, then he will play. If not, he won't. I still cannot believe you continue to analyze coach has have anything but a coaching motivation for playing Dennis than that he believes he is the best choice. You keep posting over and over than Caoch Hafley has reasons for playing Grosel that are not based on what is best for the team. If you are right, then coach should be dismissed. Your justification for this reasoning is that coach told folks he relates to Dennis because he, too, was undersized. That appears to be a caring coach standing up for one of his players to me -- it appears to be a coach making poor decisions to you. You have a right to that opinion -- but I also have a right to mine. I spent some time studying the Clemson game and did not see normal Pro-style behavior from both the tight ends and the running back when Clemson blitzed. That may be on Dennis, but it would seem it was more on Cignetti. Let's hope coaches have this fixed by NC State or it will be a very difficult game. And guys, we are on the same side -- neither of us is the enemy. We should be able to disagree about how BC plays the game without getting angry at each other.
 

droche86

Member
I disagree. Caleb Williams is 5-rated QB with credential similar to that of Phil. Our backups are more like the Penn State backups. But I guess you guys are going to insist that our coaching staff is wrong and your are right. That's your opinion and your are entitled to it.

My point is that if we had a QB backup like Oklahoma does (a 5-rated QB) Dennis would have never got on the field. Coaches have had two weeks to work with the backups and I have every confidence that if they believe a backup can play better than Dennis, then he will play. If not, he won't. I still cannot believe you continue to analyze coach has have anything but a coaching motivation for playing Dennis than that he believes he is the best choice. You keep posting over and over than Caoch Hafley has reasons for playing Grosel that are not based on what is best for the team. If you are right, then coach should be dismissed. Your justification for this reasoning is that coach told folks he relates to Dennis because he, too, was undersized. That appears to be a caring coach standing up for one of his players to me -- it appears to be a coach making poor decisions to you. You have a right to that opinion -- but I also have a right to mine. I spent some time studying the Clemson game and did not see normal Pro-style behavior from both the tight ends and the running back when Clemson blitzed. That may be on Dennis, but it would seem it was more on Cignetti. Let's hope coaches have this fixed by NC State or it will be a very difficult game. And guys, we are on the same side -- neither of us is the enemy. We should be able to disagree about how BC plays the game without getting angry at each other.
Where do you come up with these crazy theories ? You want to dismiss Hafley ? You impute your hairbrain opinions as mine. Stick to the argument. Stick to the points of discussion.

It seems you are the type of person that loves to argue for arguments sake. You always have to be right. Your poor wife. You get upset when someone challenges your "football acumen". Debate the issues in sports. It's fun. You need to stick to the points of debate. Don't put words (or opinions) in someone else's mouth.

Pulling your starting quarterback is very difficult decision for a coach. They are human and emotions can sometimes get in the way.

I believe Grosel should start against NC State. You have to give him every chance to prove people like me wrong. Just like Oklahoma gave Rattler every chance (more than they should have) before the pulled him.

I repeat if Grosel doesn't turn it around I would pull him.
Have you been to any of the games. Grosel's incompetence is evident. On TV they don't show you the wide open receivers that Grosel never targets.

I contend any one of the backups would have beaten Clemson.

Grosel (1) either under threw or over threw 6 passes (several them would be touchdowns) , (2) there must have been at least another 6 wide open receivers that Grosel never saw and (3) he threw two interceptions.

How do you consistently win games when your maximum passing range is 15 yards ? All that and BC only lost by 6 points.
 
Last edited:

AJBlack_BC

Administrator
Staff member
Where do you come up with these crazy theories ? You want to do miss Hadley ?

It seems you are the type of person that loves to argue for arguments sake. You always have to be right. You get upset when someone challenges your "football acumen". Your poor wife .

Pulling your starting quarterback is very difficult decision for a coach. They are human and emotions can sometimes get in the way.

I believe Grosel should start against NC State. You have to give him every chance to prove people like me wrong. Just like Oklahoma gave Rattler every chance (more than they should have) .

I repeat if Grosel doesn't turn it around I would pull him.
Have you been to any of the games. Grosel's incompetence is evident. On TV they don't show you the wide open receivers that Grosel never targets.

I contend any one of the backups would have beaten Clemson. Grosel either under threw or over threw 6 passes (several them would be touchdowns) , their must have been at least another 6 wide open receivers that Grosel never saw and he threw two interceptions. All that and BC only lost by 6 points.
As someone who follows the team I strongly disagree. Menard couldn’t run the offense like Grosel did and would have gotten clobbered by Clemson. Rueve and Morehead are suuuuuuuper raw. They need more time
 

droche86

Member
As someone who follows the team I strongly disagree. Menard couldn’t run the offense like Grosel did and would have gotten clobbered by Clemson. Rueve and Morehead are suuuuuuuper raw. They need more time
The discussion of playing Grosel vs Playing a backup is very appropriate to the discussion.
It's the key discussion re BC's record for this year.

Deleting my response to your post is just plain wrong.
 
Last edited:

CDB

Member
I agree -- this is my last post to you. Your opinions are your opinions. My opinions are my opinions -- I base many of them on my experience of playing for BC for one year -- You are entitled to your opinions -- but name calling is childish. This is the second time you have resorted to it. Both Mitch (who wrote the article you quoted above) and AJ Black disagree with you that we should play another QB.
 

micmon

Member
Let's keep some perspective. Coaches who get paid to evaluate QBs will coach, players will play and we get to watch.

My own $0.02 is that barring injury or some kind of collapse, the BC QB is going to be and should be DG. Based on that, I hope for more plays completed down the field, less turnovers and see what happens. Could even be very good.
 

droche86

Member
Let's keep some perspective. Coaches who get paid to evaluate QBs will coach, players will play and we get to watch.

My own $0.02 is that barring injury or some kind of collapse, the BC QB is going to be and should be DG. Based on that, I hope for more plays completed down the field, less turnovers and see what happens. Could even be very good.
M

I agree. Point taken.
However , debating sport and voicing your opinion is part of being a fan whether it's on a chat board like this or around the water cooler at work. Some take this too serious. It's supposed to be fun.


My question

You, Wolfe, AJ and CDB all are adament Grosel should start this year.

BASED ON WHAT ? ? ?


1. Have you been to any of the games ? I have been to 3 and Colgate was not one of them. The TV does not give you a good perspective of the overall quarterback play. AJ has been to one (Colgate) . I'm guessing the rest have been to zero.

2. How many practices have any of the 4 of you been to ? My assumption is zero. Am I wrong ?

So what do you all base your opinion on ?

What a coach says (AJ calls it Coach Speak) in public needs to be put in perspective. What do you expect him to say ?
Any coach is going to defend their quarterback to the death, UNTIL THEY DON'T.

Nobody that is part of or close to BC organization is going to criticize Grosel.

Oklahoma fans criticized Rattler and they were correct.

Let's back Grosel for now.

What are the odds Grosel completes the season.?

It is a shame the "cancel culture" has come to a sports chat board.
 
Last edited:

micmon

Member
I base it on what I've seen. Grosel played vs UL and UVA last year and his overall play this year. Perfect? Of course not. What I didn't see was anything out of FR #8 or #14 in the spring game that would lead me to believe they were seriously in the mix for action this season. Limited view? Sure. Can things change? Of course.

That's where it's at for me.
 

CDB

Member
You are such an expert. Let's start with the statement that Oklahoma State fans criticized Rattler. I guess they would because he plays for their arch-rival. Do a little fact-checking or slow down.

No one owes you any explanation for they think -- nor do you owe us any. Say, you have a group of BC friends at your home and you watch the game together. The guys banter with each other all evening about their sports opinions. At the end of the night , every goes home still friends. For some reason, you look at this issue of who plays QB has earth-shattering with only one right answer. Stop it -- this is just sports blog -- everyone is right and everyone is wrong. And you can be sure that our coaches are not going to make any decisions based on what any of us think.

The loss to Clemson was devastating. We all felt the pain. If somehow Dennis was able to score, the discussions on this board would be about an undefeated team. But also be aware of how devastating that loss was for the coaches and for Dennis.
 

droche86

Member
CDB :
(1)
"No one owes you any explanation for they think "-
We're debating who should start. You don't want to give a reason why you say Grosel? You haven't been to one game or one practice so you don't have any basis for saying the 3 backups are not ready. I gave 8 reasons why Grosel sucks.

(2)
"Say, you have a group of BC friends at your home and you watch the game together. The guys banter with each other all evening about their sports opinions. At the end of the night , every goes home still friends"
Does this mean your not my friend anymore. ? Please don't say it's so.

(3)
"For some reason, you look at this issue of who plays QB has earth-shattering with only one right answer"
Earth shattering no. Important yes. You say you played footbal. You should know the importance of who starts quarterback. Stop it -- this is just sports blog

(4)
"And you can be sure that our coaches are not going to make any decisions based on what any of us think."
God, I hope not. I am not engaged on this forum to influence coaches. Coaches probably laugh at what is posted here. Coaches even laugh at what most of the editors of the half dozen journalist that cover BC. The journalist can't be honest analyst. They have to be cheerleaders for BC. Honestly, the coaches don't have time to read our chirping.
Otherwise they would be cut off from information flow.

(5)
"The loss to Clemson was devastating. We all felt the pain. If somehow Dennis was able to score, the discussions on this board would be about an undefeated team. But also be aware of how devastating that loss was for the coaches and for Dennis."

Yes, even if Dennis was able score on one of the multiple opportunities he had BC's football would be off and ruñing. BUT HE DIDN'T.

Hafley will still get us to the promised land. Just a short delay. Unless Grosel sets us back even further. That what scares me as a BC fan.

You say you played one year for BC ?
Recently ?
Were you another 2 star walk on like Dennis ?
Let me guess, you are his BC roommate .
Am I wrong ?
 
Last edited:
Top